Zeus complains in Book I of the Odyssey:
Ah how shameless--the way these mortals blame the gods.
From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
but they themselves, with their own reckless ways,
compound their pains beyond their proper share (1.37-40).
What is Zeus saying? Is he right? Whose fault is it anyway that Odysseus has been wandering for ten years -- that the suitors are eating him out of house and home? From what we know of the story so far (think of the story of Agamemnon, Ajax, Menelaus and Nestor as well as Odysseus), are the gods to blame for our suffering and successes-- or are we?
The Gods are extremely important in Greek mythology and often do determine the outcome of various conflicts. However, while the Gods do have a noticeable presence in Human affairs, it would be incorrect to blame them for our struggles and our successes.
ReplyDeleteThe Gods do not take action unless moved to do so in some way. Mainly, Gods get involved because of Human action. Humans provoke, flatter, annoy, pray to, and challenge the Gods, and they respond in whatever manner they see fit.
So while the Gods may cause us grief, pain, loss, love, happiness, joy, etc., we still ultimately decide our own fate. To prosper, we must be kind to the Gods; we must love them, sacrifice to them, pray to them, whatever they please. However, if we anger the gods, we can expect punishment.
In conclusion, Zeus is correct in saying that we cause our own suffering, and for Odysseus to have received such rotten luck, he must have done something to anger the gods/a god.
I believe that the gods have a huge role in the suffering and success of humans.
DeleteWhile I can completely understand where you are coming from with this argument, I would like to point out the the gods are much more involved in our day to day struggles that it might seem at first. For example, you said yourself that "...if we anger the gods, we can expect punishment." A prime example of that is the Odyssey itself. Odysseus is not imprisoned by Calypso for any reason other than that she loved him. This is not his fault nor the doing of any other mortal. Odysseus is detained simply because a goddess willed it. Furthermore, Odysseus was not able to escape Calypso's grasp by any of his own doing. A meeting of the gods concerning Odysseus was the only reason he was released from captivity.
The story of Nestor also turned out like it did because of divine influence. Nestor, just because he made proper sacrifices, had a safe return home. A success in my opinion, made possible by the gods. Nestor's crew could have been inexperienced and lazy, but the sea carried him home simply because the gods were pleased.
Of course, to really debate this topic, one must establish what really is "a human's fault." If Ajax never returns home because he did not make proper sacrifices is it his fault or are the gods being unrealistic? If humans really had free will, every success and loss would be their fault. But in the end, we don't. We're controlled by the will and demands of gods, and are forced to make sacrifices and invite guests into our homes. Because of the heavy impact and control the gods have on such individual levels, it is apparent that the gods have much more control over our success and suffering than we might think.
In the above quotation, Zeus is saying that humans wrongly blame the gods for their own misfortune and suffering. Zeus is trying to say that humanity does not want to take responsibility for their suffering and would rather blame a higher power than face their suffering as a result of something they had done wrong. In ancient Greece and throughout the Odyssey, it is true that the gods are critical in deciding fate. The gods control the fate of the people, however, their decisions are a direct result of our own actions. If a person has done a god wrong, then they will be forced to face the consequences. For example, Ajax, on his return home from the Trojan War after surviving a rough adventure, “’In the teeth of the gods,’ he bragged, ‘I have escaped/ the ocean’s sheer abyss!’ Poseidon heard the frantic vaunt/ and the god grasped his trident in both his massive hands/ and struck the Gyraean headland” (4.565-68). Ajax would have survived his journey home, had he not gotten greedy. Because of his vaunts and boasts against the gods, his fate was turned by Poseidon and he was killed. Despite the fact that the gods control fate, it is ultimately up to the mortals to pray to, cherish, and make sacrifices to serve the gods. If we play our cards right and rid ourselves of our reckless ways, the gods will not cause us suffering. In the above quotation, Zeus is explaining that the fate of one’s own life, while somewhat controlled by a higher power, is ultimately up to each individual. The gods are not the blame for our suffering and successes. We have control over our initial actions and if we serve the gods correctly and step away from our reckless ways, then the gods will treat us well. Therefore, Zeus is correct in saying that characters such as Odysseus, Ajax, and Agamemnon are to blame for their own misfortune and suffering.
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ReplyDeleteZeus is saying that people blame too much on the gods instead of looking at their own wrong doings. In Greek history the gods are responsible for all good things and bad things that happen in a person’s life. Zeus is saying that we need to take some responsibility for our wrongs doings because the gods don’t have control over everything. He is basically saying that people have free will and therefore they make their own decisions. Also, while Zeus and the other gods do control something’s they do not control everything. For instance what you do with your free will may have consequences later and the gods cannot control that. In Odysseus’s case it is partially his fault and partially the gods. Odysseus’s journey for ten years could be the gods teaching him a lesson due to something he decided to do earlier in life. At the same time, however, Odysseus may be at fault. This is because he could have unconsciously decided not to take help from the gods to get home. Overall, the gods are not to blame for all of our suffering because people have free will and all actions have some form of consequence.
ReplyDeleteThe blame should be shared between the gods and the mortals. Ajax, Menelaus, Agamemnon, and Odysseus all suffered on their journeys home from Troy because of their own actions, however they also suffered because of the gods' punishments. And all suffered because they did not appease the gods.
ReplyDeleteAjax, Menelaus, Agamemnon, and Odysseus all failed to appease the gods and therefore suffered. While this choice was in their control, the reason they suffered is because they did not appease the gods. The gods are punishing them for making the wrong choice, so they are partially to blame for their suffering. Ajax's story is a clear example of this idea. On his way home from war Ajax failed to appease the gods. Because of this Poseidon punished him and drowned him. The other heroes' stories are similar and support the same idea. In Ajax's story, he did not fear the gods and was then punished by them. This was partly his fault for not appeasing the gods, however Poseidon, god of the sea, punished and killed him for neglecting the gods.
While many mortals make the wrong choices, the gods are the ones that ultimately punished them.
Sorry about that last comment... I guess it's a placeholder now to show that I'm replying mostly to Alyssa and Alex. I didn't realize that deleting the comment left something there/that I couldn't edit it after posting it...
ReplyDeleteAnyways, here's my analysis:
Humans have free will to do what they please. However, Gods can intervene with human life to help or harm them as they please. Even so, they don't control actions, that's up to the humans. However, Gods do expect certain amounts of respect from humans, such as sacrifices. Menelaus comments on this;
"It was in Egypt, where the gods still marooned me,
eager as I was to voyage home... I'd failed,
you see, to render them full, flawless victims,
and gods are always keen to see their rules obeyed" (4.390-394).
In this quote, Menelaus explains how he was marooned on an island because he didn't sacrifice anything to the Gods. In this case, Menelaus suffered because of the Gods. However, if he had sacrificed, he would not have had this problem. Then again, the Gods could just let it go. In other words, an instance like this could be taken from either view, however I think the Gods are at fault because they don't have to be so strict.
On the other hand, Telemachus suffers solely from human action. The Gods have nothing to do with the suitors plaguing his mother, they actually take pity on Telemachus. This is suffering caused completely by humans.
Overall, I believe that humans do their own actions, though they can be "inspired" or affected by the actions of the Gods. Gods are not the sole cause for all of human suffering and pleasure, humans definitely are a part of it. However, Gods can be a factor in this.
In this quotation, Zeus is explaining how humans are reckless and destructive. He is complaining about the humans blame the gods for the misfortune in the world, when really, they are the cause. It is not Odysseus’s fault that he did not return home for 13 years because the gods were the ones who placed the obstacles in his way of coming home.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Zeus is not correct when saying that humans are the cause of the destruction in the world because the gods are the ones who created humans. The gods have the choice of how they want to create people. They have the option of creating a perfect human being, as shown when Odysseus challenges Brodsea, “’You, you’re a reckless fool-I see that. So, the gods don’t hand out all their gifts at once, not build and brains and flowing speech to all.” This quotation explains how no one is perfect and good at everything. It explains how the gods are the ones who choose which characteristics we have, therefore, they also have the option of creating the ideal human. If we were all ideal humans, then we would not create any recklessness.
In this era, gods were believed to have controlled just about anything, so the blame or the glory was given to the gods accordingly. However, there are a few examples of mortals suffering that isn’t caused by the gods. Some include Ajax’s, Menelaus’, and Odysseus’ stories. With that said, I think that this is solely the mortals fault, because the gods are not always to blame; they are innocent in Agamemnon’s example:
ReplyDeleteAgamemnon was married to Clytemnestra, but Clytemnestra and Aegisthus were actually lovers behind Agamemnon’s back. Together, Clytemnestra and Aegisthus killed Agamemnon which can be blamed on love. Love for each other and Aegisthus’ jealousy of Agamemnon and his wife is what caused his death. Basically, Clytemnestra and Aegisthus wanted Agamemnon out of the picture because Aegisthus wouldn’t want to be the ‘odd one out’ or the ‘third wheel’ because he wasn’t even married to Clytemnestra. The easy answer was to kill Agamemnon.
The gods obviously played no role in this situation because they weren’t punishing Agamemnon for anything; Aegisthus was the killer. I think this quote is sort of expressing how humans don't take responsibility for their actions, and they usually will blame it on a higher power. In the end, the suffering and misery was only caused by humans, so therefore, the gods are not to blame.
In the Odyssey, there are many bad situations that involve the gods. As Zeus complained, the humans do excessively blame the gods; however there are times when the gods deserve the criticism. Odysseus has been wandering the lands for ten years because he offended the mighty god Poseidon when he blinded his Cyclops son. It is Odysseus’s fault for doing such a thing, and Poseidon had every right to be mad. But to hold a grudge for ten years seems a bit unnecessary. Another example is Agamemnon and his story. Agamemnon offended the gods by not making sacrifices to the gods and barely acknowledging them on his way back from Troy.
ReplyDeleteDue to the fact that the Gods are dominant do the humans; it was Agamemnon’s duty to praise the gods. Because he did not, he was killed for it. The punishment once again appears to be somewhat harsher than expected for a crime of that stature. The gods have the responsibility of punishing those that do wrong, but their punishments can be extreme. However, the gods only punish those who have offended them in some way. The negative actions that occur throughout the Odyssey are not controlled by the gods. When something bad happens, the gods have to respond accordingly. The gods are not to blame for the suffering of the people. It was their actions alone which forced the gods to punish them, even if the punishment may have been a bit drastic. It can be seen how the humans may feel the gods are causing their problems because of the unruly consequences given to them, but that is not exactly so.
In this quote, Zeus is angry with humans. He is fed up with their selfishness and the fact that they will blame anyone but themselves for anything. He doesn't like that humans blame things on gods but don't stop to realize that it could be their own wrong actions. He continues to go on and say how humans are reckless, destructive, and in the end careless as to what they have done. Unless they can blame it on someone else (The Gods). Zeus is right to complain and be angry, because (especially coming from an atheist point of view), the gods have nothing to do with human action. They can not control humans. Humans control themselves. So it is wrong that after a screw up, a human would just straight up blame the gods for an action they might have thought twice about after doing it. Humans for the most part started the war. Sometimes these wars might be over gods, but they were started by humans so anything happening in the wars, good or bad, should be the fault of humans. My point is that Odysseus, if not him then other humans, engaged in the war and let bad things happen. So, again the fault lies on the humans.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that could go against my argument, is that in this book, gods are more than just imaginary beings. But, for the most part, humans should be blamed for human action.
In Greek mythology such as in The Odyssey, gods like Zeus do determine a mortal’s fate. However, humans like Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus need to be able to realize and understand that if Zeus and the gods are determining their fate, they need to worship them to a certain level of the greatness. In this situation, Zeus is correct, but the humans also need to contribute to their own fate. An example of the gods choosing a mortals fate, is in book 5 when the goddess Athena tells Zeus to help Odysseus’s journey back home. During this time in the book, Odysseus has been wandering for ten years all thanks to a goddess named Calypso.
ReplyDelete“Now he’s left to pine on an island, racked with grief
In the nymph Calypso’s house—she hold him there by force.
He has no way to voyage home to his own native land,
No trim ships in reach, no crew to ply the oars
And send him scudding over the sea’s broad back” (5. 14-19).
This quotation reflects how in order for Athena to like Odysseus, he needs to adore her, sacrifice to her, and ultimately worship her. Other than Zeus, gods like Athena can determine a mortal’s fate. But, it is up to that mortal to determine their fate as well.
In this first section of Book 1 of the Odyssey, Zeus is complaining about how the heroes returning from Troy and other Greeks are blaming the gods for their own misfortunes. He is saying that since the people only blame their fate on the gods, they see themselves as blameless, when in fact it is they themselves who are causing these misfortunes. Zeus is not completely right about this. It is the mortals fault for their misfortunes, by their actions, but the actual misfortunes come directly from the gods. For instance, if a mortal does not pay proper tribute to a god, their mistake, then the god will see this as a sign of disrespect and punish them. So Zeus’s statement saying that the mortals cause their own harm is only partially true. In the case of Odysseus, his suffering may be caused by the way he acted prior to the Odyssey. As I stated previously, it is wrong for the humans to blame the gods entirely for their fate. The mortal humans are expected to show respect to the gods, and when this respect is not demonstrated the gods become offended. This offense leads to the gods altering their fates as a form of revenge. In Nestor’s case, he returned safely to his home because he made proper sacrifices. On the other hand Ajax, another hero, mocked the gods and fell off of a cliff. To summarize, sufferings and successes are caused by a combination of mortal action and divine intervention.
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